2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

You must think little of the animals that came forth at God’s command. They depend upon Him…in fact they normally do a much better job at these things than we do; Balaam’s Ass probably has us all beat; read Numbers 22. If you don’t have a Bible, you can find the text here: http://www.biblegateway.com

All of creation cries out to be made new, all of creation is also called on to praise God and that includes all the animals check out Psalm 148. Jesus informs us that if the humans were silent when He was entering Jerusalem the very rocks would cry out (Luke 19) .

It’s not the fear of God you need, Dave, it is God Himself. And He will send His Spirit to you if you acknowledge Jesus; He desires that all would come to salvation, including you. That fear you have is meant to make you aware of Him and to lead you to Him; once there, there is no more need to fear.

FYI, contrary to what you may have been lead to believe, we do not have a blind faith. In fact, pistis, the Greek word translated faith, is to have trust and confidence…no one has true trust and confidence in something that they have no evidence for, and God does not demand blind faith from us. Learn about His Son; His life, death, and resurrection; study the evidence. Study the evidence that shows the Bible is completely trustworthy; historically accurate, internally and externally consistent, archaeologically accurate, prophetically accurate, holds up to textual criticism, that the witnesses to Christ were reliable, etc… Put the time in, you won’t regret it.

The mind (psychological issues) affects the body (physical) ; mind and body are connected to our souls (spiritual). They all affect each other, so non-belief can indeed include psychological issues.

Speaking of non-belief as if it is a psychological issue is absurd.

Ahhh, but speaking of belief as a psychological issue is perfectly fine. It’s only believers who have psychological issues or ‘delusions’ right? You couldn’t possibly have any psychological issues, because you are a completely rational computer…formed by random biological processes and natural selection. You have no emotions and no free will. You didn’t answer my question about your relationship with your father. Are you also speaking out against Dawkins, who claims that belief in God is a ‘delusion,’ and that you used in a previous comment? All I can hope for, is that you open your heart to the spirit of God, and address him with the problems that you have with Him.

The idea of god is a manufactured belief. All of the other animals on this planet get along just fine without requiring any gods. Can you point out any other species on this planet that is as deliberately cruel and brutal that humans (yes, even the God-fearing ones) have been?

Speaking of non-belief as if it is a psychological issue is absurd. It only further demonstrates that people like you are detached from reality and that nonsense like this needs to be exposed as such.

You’ve done it again, you totally avoid answering the question, or even the attempt at providing premises for your conclusion. How can an atheist logically claim they can have a meaningful, absolute, objective morality? What is your premises for saying that it is indeed possible to have these things without God?

Your misunderstanding appears twofold; first, you miss the context of Euthyphro’s dilemma, and second you miss the logic in the Christian’s reply at the link provided.

God is indeed good; man is flawed. Muslims, in their false belief system, teach that mankind is capable of following Allah’s commands on their own and that you should kill your enemies. Christians believe that mankind is incapable of following God’s commands on their own, that only God can deal out just punishment, that one should love one’s enemies and pray for them, answering evil with good…yup, that is exactly the same reasoning… Christian belief, and our saying that The One True God exists, is Good, is Righteous, etc.. is based upon logic, evidence, Truth, grace and on and on.

Then you create a strawman, “the assertion that belief in God is Good by definition,” no one has ever said that, or your grammar is messed up to the point that you are not communicating what you really mean. However, let me address both possible points; faith in The One True God is good by definition, but faith in a god/gods/goddesses/yourself, any false god is not good by definition. Also, God is indeed Good, He is also perfectly Holy, Just, Righteous, Merciful, etc… this statement is based on logic and evidence.

The article you link to does a swell job at showing the misplacing of the burden of proof; it is clearly seen in the attempt at a syllogism at the beginning of the article. Christians say that Atheists do not have a logical leg to stand on when arguing they can have objective morals; Atheist say they do. The atheist has the burden of proof because they are stating a positive, and also because their claim has the least initial plausibility. It is up to an atheist to defend their position on this, as they (you) have the burden of proof, it is subtle, but the author does indeed misplace the burden. The article contains straw man fallacies as well. Euthyphro’s dilemma has already been handled both theologically and logically.

Kliska,
TheChristianScribbler.com

I’m attempting to insult everyone’s intelligence? You have a psychic ability that allows you to know my intentions and motivations?

‘Second, you give no evidence against the argument that atheists don’t have a logical leg to stand on when attempting to argue that they too can have an objective morality. You are implying that your conclusion is, “the atheist position can logically claim meaningful morality.” How? You don’t give any premises, instead you offer a red herring in trying to attack the Christian faith.’

This is certainly the heads I win, tails you lose thinking that Mr. Lippard already alluded to. You made a philosphical claim about morality based upon religious reasoning. It’s impossible for me to reply to that without criticizing the underlying reasoning offered (i.e. “attacking the faith” and what not.)

I read the link you suggested, and found it to be jibber-jabber and mumbo jumbo (e.g. the Trinity can’t bear false witness against itself?) that is a long-winded way of saying, again, that God is good by definition, by nature, or whatever.

That is exactly the reasoning that was given to me by the Muslim in the link I provided as justification for the execution of apostates. For him, and for others who share his faith, God = Good is the foundation of their fanatacism.

That certainly seems, to me at least, to be a vivid and vital counterpoint to the assertion that belief in God is Good by definition/by nature/whatever apologetics constitutes an objective moral system.

Since we are likely not going to do anymore that present our viewpoints to each other, I will return the favor of the link given and offer this page of article by Michael Martin which illustrates my view of the matter

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/rape.html

1. They do indeed tend to act like believers are akin to drooling idiots; there are whole websites that seem dedicated to making fun of the intelligence of Christians. This is despite ample evidence that there are highly intelligent, thoughtful people that believe that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God, that He lived, was crucified, and resurrected on the third day. Indeed, I would even venture to say that the majority of Christian believers are intelligent and thoughtful people, and their faith is not blind.

2. This point is the one I’m mainly referring to when I say that atheist’s posts prove it. I’ve ran into perhaps one atheist who finally did admit that if the naturalistic worldview is correct, then there is no objective and absolute morality; however, they said that they would still act like there was. I see that as evidence for God. His imprint on us, and what we inherited from Adam is alive and well; a knowledge of morality. We may disagree on what is right and wrong, but everyone knows there is a right and wrong.

3. This point probably holds true for both atheists and believers. Everyone has something they don’t want to give up or change, including their perceived rule over their own lives. Believers get over that in faith…many times as we grown in our walk with the Lord.

4. They tend not to be tolerant of the beliefs of believers. For example, part of the Christian belief is that we are to preach the gospel/evangelize; they don’t like that. We are also to raise up our children with a knowledge of God, and His word. Then we have Dick Dawkins declaring that that is akin to child abuse (which his atheist followers have changed into a mantra). Yes, he backpedals, and reduces the charge of child abuse to those people that label a child a “Christian child” (which I’ve never heard anyone do….), but one has to question if he really meant his backpedal, since he, and his followers, keeps bringing the original charge up again and again.

Why would atheists be the least trusted? Because, their stance on morality rests on sand, and supposedly they do not believe in Ultimate Justice. Are there moral atheists? Absolutely. But their morality doesn’t have a logical basis if they reject absolute truth and an Absolute Objective Law Giver. Further, from a purely Christian POV, they are willfully denying the God who made them: http://christianscribbler.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/without-excuse/

5. They do tend to enjoy proselytizing. I’ve seen it happen innumerable times, with atheists even breaking Christian message boards’ rules to do so. They see it as “winning” if they get a Christian to even question their faith…hmmm…winning against Who I might wonder.

6. Anyone that does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Spiritual fulfillment of knowing Christ are indeed looking to fill that gap in different ways; intellectualizing, different religions, messiah type figures in literature/movies/TV, etc… human relationships, the list goes on. It isn’t just fulfillment on an emotional level, or psychological level, believers seek that type of thing too, but on a spiritual one, and it seems to get “worse” if the person denies the very spiritual nature of man.

7. They do tend to ignore their own emotional and psychological reasons for not believing, while at the same time maintaining Believers only believe because of psychological and emotional reasons.

Kliska,
TheChristianScribbler.com

Second, you give no evidence against the argument that atheists don’t have a logical leg to stand on when attempting to argue that they too can have an objective morality. You are implying that your conclusion is, “the atheist position can logically claim meaningful morality.” How? You don’t give any premises, instead you offer a red herring in trying to attack the Christian faith.

Third, to answer your red herring, the One True God, defines objective morality in a way that Euthyphro’s dilemma doesn’t touch upon. Note that the conversation in the dilemma revolves around the Greek pantheon and the inconsistencies seen within that pantheon. God doesn’t fit that description. He defines morality in His very nature; His Being encompasses these things; right-ness, goodness, etc…, not by arbitrarily defining it, and it doesn’t come from outside His being. I believe the ‘Shrink links to a discussion of this at: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47024 for one perspective

Frankly, I know that God is Good; there is overwhelming evidence of this fact; logical, historical, spiritual, etc…. What I believe we are seeing in your responses is the fact that you just don’t want to bow to His authority even though He is God, and that probably does entail a psychological component, but I know it involves a “heart” component. It seems you believe you could do a better job, and even be more moral than God Himself…I’ve read this type of story before, and I know how it ends.

However, you still have the opportunity to recognize Jesus as God’s Son, and your Lord and Saviour, and it is my hope and prayer that you do.